The following interview was published in September '97 on a drum magazine called 
RHYTHM. I'm pretty sure this is a British mag once one can see the symbol of a pound on the price.


	He may be one of the most famous singers-songwriters in the world; he 
may be a film actor of no small notoriety; he may even play a bit of piano once 
in a while...but in his heart he'll always be a drummer. Lumme, it can only be 
Phil Collins...

words: Heinz Kronberger

	It's beyond question, really: PC is still one of the biggest names in showbusiness in 
the world. His career has seen him in demand as a singer, composer and drummer, not to 
mention his `sideline' profession as an actor. But, of course, it's the percussive side we're 
interested  in here,and it's not a side we get to hear much about these days.
	Phil never had any formal training in drumming - he simply has a natural talent for 
music in the broadest sense. Although he's probably more closely associated with the piano 
these days, the drums have been his first instrument since he started playing them at the age 
of 5. He played along to records, the radio, and, still at an early age, with small bands in and 
around London.
	As a child he also acted in several TV and theatre productions, and lent his voice to a 
few radio plays. Through all of this, Phil got used to performing in front of an audience at a 
very young age - something that would prove only too helpful with his various bands.
	One of the first of these was Flaming Youth, who were brought down  by a damning 
press campaign before they ever got off the ground. Shortly after that, Phil replied to an ad in 
Melody Maker, a young band called Genesis were looking for an experienced drummer.
	"In fact, I didn't know the band at al", he says "but they sounded interesting from 
their advert. They had a lot of gigs and I just liked the sound of them. So I called them, and 
Peter Gabriel invited over for a rehearsal with some other drummers and some guitarists. He 
audition took place in the garden of his parents'house. There was a small PA, some amps and 
- most importantly - a big pool. So I jumped in and watched the others drummers playing . I 
could recognise the mistakes they were making and learn the songs. I'm sure that helped me 
get the job when it came to my turn. The next we met in the office of Charisma Records , 
discussed all the details, and I received my first payment, which was 10 pounds a week." 
	In 1972 the band played their first gig abroad. Although each new album was 
heralded with a major tour, until 1976 none of these outings actually made the band any 
money; everything was put back into production and stage decoration.
	In 1975 PG left the band and Phil became the lead singer. This was where the 
theatrical experiences of his childhood really came to the fore; during the next 10 years  he'd 
become one of the world's biggest stars in his own right.
	"I knew that it wouldn't be easy to act as a front man, and of course we also needed a 
new drummer", he remembers. " We decided to ask Bill Brufford - a musician who I always 
admired. He joined as a band member without any problems, but left only 2 years later. At 
the beginning of '76 he was followed by Chester Thompson, who had played drums with 
Frank Zappa and Weather Report. He was the first American in the band, and he gave us a 
surprising new touch. I learned a lot about drumming from him. He also played in my own 
band for years". 
	But despite the decidedly prog nature of the outfit at the time, it seemed that Genesis 
never really served all Phil's music needs. So he formed Brand X, very much a jazz-rock 
project.  
	"That was out of the need to just do something different", he laughs. "There I could 
play the things I liked other than what I did with Genesis, which were always arranged 
perfectly. Things were different with Brand X. It was a wonderful thing for me to play 
around with technique, there was not much of a structure and a lot of improvisation. When 
Brand X became more conscious and structured, it was boring for me and I left the group. I 
tried to concentrate on composing , and also realised that a lot of my material didn't suit the 
Genesis style. After getting divorced from my first wife, I was encouraged by some friends to 
do my first solo album. So my career took a totally new direction without me having much to 
do with it."

 	You worked with electronic drums very early on in your career, most notably 
the Simmons kit and the Roland CR78. The way you used them was historic. How did 
that come about?
	The influence to work with electronic sounds, and integrate them into the songs came 
from Peter Gabriel. I studied his music carefully in the late 80's and found a lot of interesting 
things in it. Also, drum machines were never a competition to me as a musician or a drummer 
. I always saw them as another tool or instrument to work with. All those sounds can be 
combined and used creatively. I'm not a percussion player, so I've always profited from that. 
But I should also point out that a musician like Luis Conte (Phil's percussionist) could never 
be replaced by any machine - he's going to play on my records in the future, to.
	We've had another percussionist before, but we didn't harmonise too well. I met 
Steve Forman in an LA bookshop and talked with him. Our ideas seemed to match up so I 
invited him to join the band. But he just wasn't the right person - it had nothing to do with his 
ability as a musician. So I did my last solo album on my own again - the drums and 
percussion parts. But when Luis Conte came in, it was like a whole new world had opened up 
for me. Now there's no way I'd do the percussion parts in the studio by myself, I wish I'd 
met him earlier.
	But back to electronics. My composition work is often base on a pattern that I like on 
a drum-machine. And I play piano like a drummer, too. I'm a self-taught musician and I 
never learned to read music - which is sometimes a problem - but I'm doing it in my own 
personal way. Normally I take rhythmic figures and turn them into songs. Many of my songs 
are developed that way. In The Air... is a typical example of my kind of composition: there 
are only a few chords and a drum machine pattern that I liked. I never thought to write it at 
the piano, everything came from the pattern on a simple drum machine. I still use all those 
Roland parts and my Linn. Of course, I also have all the modern equipment, and samplers can 
certainly make your life easier, but my heart belongs to the old machines.
	It was the same with the introduction of the Simmons SDSV. Many drummers hated 
the hard pads and were afraid of what they'd do to their technique and their wrists, but I 
never had problems with that. I took it on tour and never had any pain in my wrists. It was a 
further instrument to express my creativity through - it was never a replacement for the drum 
kit. Ideas that it might be always seemed strange to me, and as we know today, drummers 
didn't need to be afraid of losing all their work.   
	In the 80's you were famous for the sound of your kit, particularly the toms. It 
was one of the drum sounds of the decade and many tried to emulate it. Today, though, 
your drums come across as more... conventional, and it's not often we get to hear that 
classic PC sound...
	The reason for that may be that it never really existed. Hugh Padgham did a lot of 
experimentation in the studio, and a lot of different sounds resulted, not only the special one. 
Take "No Jacket..." for example, every song sounds different. We tried a lot of things with 
gates and reverb until finally we reached that sound. And it was funny when samplers came 
out - loads of musicians took sample sounds from "Sussudio", "Don't Lose..."or "In The 
Air...", but all those sounds were originally made by a machine!
	With Genesis you used a lot of odd rhythms, something that came to its logical 
conclusion with Brand X. You seem to have lost interest in that now though...
	It may be because I can't play those songs any more - I'm no longer able to. When I listen to 
old tapes, I'm often surprised that I was able to play such difficult rhythms. When I worked with the 
Big Band, last year, I needed a few weeks of practising to come to an understanding with that music 
and to able to play it on the drums. Now, during our tour, I only play drums on 2 or 3 songs and a 
small solo with Ricky and Luis. Generally, I'm the one who comes to the rehearsals unprepared. I 
don't know the words enough to sing by heart , I have to practice my drum and piano parts, but 
unfortunately, I don't have the time. The whole thing is my responsibility, so I have to spend a lot of 
time on the business side of things.
	But it's true that we worked a lot with odd rhythms. I was honestly never very good at that 
stuff, the jiggery-pokery. We carried things too far, especially with Brand X. Perhaps we smoked too 
much or, or whatever, but suddenly al the songs were full of these odd rhythms. The audience would 
get confused, they couldn't clap to it, and I don't think they really liked it. I really had my problems 
with it. I used to sing the bass part really loud so I was able to keep on playing those 7 or 9 patterns. 
Sure, I loved to listen to Billy Cobhan, Tony Wilson or Simon Philips, but play like them? Oh, no.
	Did you ever have any drum lessons at all in the early days? 
	To be honest, not much. I played along to record or the radio. I had a teacher when I was 14, 
Lloyd Ryan, who tried desperately to teach me to read music, but  somehow I couldn't concentrate 
on that. I was able to listen very well, and I learned all the rudiments, like flams, paradoddles, etc. 
That was enough for me, but even so, Lloyd kept on publishing adverts like "PC drum teacher is 
giving lessons". Later there was Frank King, who taught me a few things, but still no reading. And 
after joining Genesis, I didn't try again.
	So if you couldn't read how did you get through those incredible drum duets with 
Chester Thompson? Obviously you didn't use charts...
	By listening and remembering. That's still the way I work today and I only do lead sheets - 
which no one else sees once only I could understand them - for the Big Band.
	I always liked the more emotional drummers like Tony Williams. To me Carl Palmer 
sounded like a studied musician who played everything from the sheet and didn't react to the music 
directly. When Bill Bruford came into the band, he preferred to have as little repetition as possible in 
his parts. That worked with Brand X, but not with Genesis where you simply needed those points of 
orientation. The great change came with Chester, and it was real fun to work with him. We'd only 
talked together on the phone and had our first rehearsal, and already there was this harmony between 
us. He showed me a lot. The famous duet we played with Genesis, and on my own solo tours, 
actually began in a hotel room in Dallas, Texas.
	So it wasn't totally improvised either?
	If you want to look at it like that, no. We were just sitting in front of each other playing 
drums on our chairs The whole thing was recorded on a Walkman, and we kept the best parts of it. 
We played during a gig that night and it was great. We'd just look at each other and play perfect two-
part fills without any hesitation. Since then, there have been a few times when I've played with a 
second drummer, Jamie Oldaker at Live Aid or Tony Thompson at the Led Zeppelin reunion or 
Steve Ferrone with Clapton, or now with Ricky. I love those spontaneous things, and Ricky again is 
one of those drummers with large ears and a good feeling for the other musicians. Together with Luis 
and Nathan on bass, this is the best rhythm section I've ever had. It's always a great pleasure to do 
something together on the spot. But don't get me wrong, for me the 2 drummers in a band don't 
necessarily have to be solo players. I like to hear massive grooves in a double figure - like the 
Japanese Kodo drummers, where many drummers are playing a groove and making it sound really 
impressive. During the DITL tour there'll be a drum battle where every musician on stage receives a 
drum. Hopefully, it'll be pretty impressive, both rhythmically and visually.
	Last year you worked with a Big Band for the first time, doing a small tour. It's the 
first time in a long time that you've been the only drummer in a band. Tell me the story behind 
that.  
	I've always been interested in Big Bands - Buddy Rich is one of my great heroes. It must 
have been around 1966 when I heard Buddy's West Side Song medley , and I was absolutely 
fascinated by it. Count Basie and his drummer, Harold Jones, also had a great influence on my 
drumming. I received a lot of inspiration from that music and so did a lot of other musicians. Genesis 
and Yes were strongly influenced by the Big Bands. On my second solo album, the song "The West 
Side" was sort of a homage to that golden era. And I've always been fascinated by all those horn 
sections, which is why I take one on tour with me, even though they're not built up in the usual Big 
Band way.
	The idea was growing in my head for a long time, but I wasn't sure when would be the right 
time to realise it. Then, during the world tour for the Both Sides album, the Burning for Buddy 
project came together and drew my attention back to it. There was also the fact that I broke my wrist 
- nothing really bad, but it hurt - and the press was hunting me because I was getting divorced again. 
So I took a break of some 9 months without music and moved to Switzerland. I just wanted to relax.
	In Switzerland I met an old friend, Claude Nobs, who organises the Montreaux Jazz Festival. 
He wanted me to do something for the 30th Festival, so the Big Band idea was on the table again. I 
had actually played these songs live before, which was a surprise for the audience and my crew. As 
well as that, Kathy Rich calls me every year and asks me to do one of the Buddy Rich Memorial 
concerts, and Neil Peart contacted me for his Burning for Buddy project. Unfortunately, I've always 
been too busy to do those, but my Big Band was a chance to make a dream come true. I didn't realise 
how much work it would be though.
	Originally the idea was to use the Buddy Rich Big Band for the project, wasn't it?
	That's true, that was the idea in '95. My manager Tony Smith and Claude Nobs had already 
made some preparations, but the fracture, the divorce and many other things took so much of my 
attention that we had to postpone everything until '96. Then we combined parts of my band with the 
WDR Big Band, Quincy Jones came in as the conductor - because I'd worked with him before - and 
was absolutely inspired. As the singer we had Tony Bennett, who I've always respected for his work. 
So everything was arranged - except my drumming. The songs were clear and I had exactly one 
month to get prepared for the show.
	So presumably you practised with tapes and wrote your own charts out?...
	If only it had been that simple! It all became too much for me. I was still in the middle of the 
DITL production and Quincy had already prepared tapes for me. I didn't want my first Big Band gig 
to be at Montreaux, so we booked some more gigs, and finally so many people became involved in 
the project that there was no way back for me. So I listened to the tapes in every minute of spare time 
that I had and after some days, it was clear to me that that wouldn't work. I got cold feet because of 
all those accents - and don't forget, I had to play with brushes as well. 
	So I started to note down my parts, I created my own system, the whole thing looked like 
hieroglyphics! The boys in the band couldn't stop laughing. But it worked. One thing's for sure 
though, if I came back into this world as a musician, reading music would be the first thing I'd learn.
	Some of the Tony Bennett standards are played with brushes, which isn't my usual line. 
Somehow I've made it this time, but I'm not totally satisfied with it. Now I'm listening to tapes for 
an album with the Big Band, so it's all come back round again, I have to learn to play with brushes.
	Luis Conte told me in his recent Rhythm interview that your first Big Band gig had a 
very select audience...
	That's right - and it couldn't have come at a worst time. During that very stressful period, 
The Prince's Trust contacted me. They wanted me to do a concert at the Royal Albert Hall in honour 
of Nelson Mandella. Obviously I was overjoyed, but I didn't know the date...l So this was the 
baptism of fire for Big Band drummer PC. My knees were as weak as Luis's, who was about to play 
drum kit in front of the Queen and Nelson Mandela. The whole thing was filmed by the BBC, who 
were also there during rehearsals and the other gigs. So I think there'll be a video of the album - but 
don't expect a single glimpse of my charts!
	Are there plans for a larger tour with the Big Band?
	Slowly, slowly. First the album has to be released this year, and we have to wait for the 
reaction to it. If it's as good as it was to the first 8 shows, I could imagine doing more in that 
direction.
	But first we have to finish the DITL tour, which lasts until next year. Then I want to 
concentrate on my private life - 2 divorces are enough for one lifetime. I don't want to hurry from 
one project to the next without taking stock of what's happening in my own personal life. Sure, I owe 
a lot to my music, but after 2 divorces I've changed my priorities.
	But the Big Band will continue, it has to go on because in it I can do what I like doing most, 
I love drummer and I'm a drummer with my whole heart. 
	Would you see the Big Band as the highlight of your career as a drummer?
	Sure, it's a highlight - but being the drummer in Eric Clapton's band with Cregg Phillinganes 
and Nathan East also counts. I'd say that was one of the best bands Eric ever had. I can't watch it on 
TV though, I always feel like I wasn't good enough. I'm my own worst critic, especially with my 
singing.
	Your modesty caries over your equipment, too. Obviously you could any drums you 
wanted, so why all the old gear?
	Well, I play the things I feel comfortable with. For live gigs, that means this Gretsch set with 
concert toms and a Noble & Cooley snare drum. I love the Ludwig Speed King pedal and my 70's 
Singerland hi-hat - I can work with that stuff without problems. New hardware, for me, is like new 
shoes - it pinches everywhere and you end up yearning for your old comfortable and down-trodden 
slippers. For the last album I played one of my old Premier sets which had the perfect sound for a lot 
of the songs. I still have my first Gretsch kit, which I bought from a friend who was the drummer 
with Joe Cocker's band. I've also kept some old kits from Gretsch, Premier and Pearl. I've got loads 
of old snare drums which I use from time to time, and lots of cymbals. However, the Singerland hi-
hat and the Speed King are always first choice - in the studio or live. And in the studio I always use 
the best equipment for the music, no matter what the name is on it or what I'm endorsing.
	Changing the subject somewhat, why did you leave Genesis? And what do you think 
about them continuing with 2 quite young musicians?
	I think it's great that they're carrying on with the band, and don't think the results will be 
that different to what we did before. Not many people think about who wrote the most songs for 
Genesis and composed all the hits, it was Tony and Michael, not me. I was more the arranger than 
the composer. Most of the Genesis ballads came from Tony. Hopefully the audience will accept that, 
and I wish them luck. You have to understand that we've all developed ourselves in different 
directions. I still have some great ballads inside me, but I also have songs like "Lorenzo" and all the 
big band arrangements. At the moment I'm also working on the music for a Disney movie, which is 
great fun. Perhaps I'll also work as an actor again - if there's a story I like and I have enough time. 
But first of all I want to play more Big Band music and bring that wonderful sound to more young 
people. I want to draw audience attention to this fantastic music. If that succeeds, then I'll really be 
satisfied.